The Global DEI Shift: What UK Businesses Need to Know and Why It Matters

Claire Dibben – 05:29
Just how lively the chat gets. So please do share your lived experiences, talk with your peers and like minded people on the call because that energy is just really wonderful to see. And from the feedback that we get, people, attendees always get more from the sessions. If they’re joining in in the conversation.

Claire Dibben – 05:45
So I would encourage you to do that. In fact, um, we have lots of engagement for our session last month with Donna for Neurobox, and I’m setting you a challenge. The challenge is, can you share? Can you chat and can you engage more than our April attendees did? They’re the ones to beat.

Claire Dibben – 06:01
Um, that being said, we do understand that the chat can be distracting for some of you, so if you need to, you can turn off your chat previews and you can mute the notifications that you can focus a bit more on the conversation at hand. So we’re joined by Celia today, and we’ll be doing a bit of a Q&A with Celia.

Claire Dibben – 06:19
Um, if you have a question for our speaker, I’d encourage you to use the Q&A section at the bottom of your screen. I’m going to point. I usually point, um, it should say the words Q&A. Um, I would encourage you to put your questions there rather than the chat, because the chat gets very busy and it means that questions can get lost if you put them in the Q&A.

Claire Dibben – 06:38
Section. It helps me find them quicker. And other people on the call can upvote questions that they want to be asked. So it helps us understand which ones to tackle as a priority. And then for those of you just coming on the webinar. Yes, the session is being recorded.

Claire Dibben – 06:54
It’s probably our most popular question. Um, we do record these sessions and they are shared on our website afterwards. So we have gosh. Uh, probably about two years worth of webinar content on the CareScribe website at the moment. Covering all sorts of various relevant, useful, valuable topics.

Claire Dibben – 07:11
Um, so you will receive the recording of this session tomorrow in your inbox. But if you want to go and explore all of the other content that we’ve created, just head to our website and take a look Oh, and you also get how can I forget? Uh, a full transcript generated by. Caption.Ed as well. So that will arrive in your inbox along with the recording.

Claire Dibben – 07:30
Should we get today’s conversation started? Yes, I think so. I’m going to have a drink of water. So if you miss the missed the start of the webinar, I did say that I think I’m in the hottest, hottest room in the world. Um. So I’m going to try and get quite a condensed version of an introduction in here because Celia has one of the most impressive list of credentials.

Claire Dibben – 07:55
I’ve ever had the pleasure of reading. Um, so whilst I invite Celia to join me on screen. I will do a bit of an introduction. So Celia is a multi-award winning government special Advisor, policy and legal expert and one of the UK’s most influential voices on disability, equity and human rights She was named the most influential disabled person in the UK in 2020 four, and featured on the Global Diversity Leaders list.

Claire Dibben – 08:25
Celia has played a pivotal role in shaping disability legislation and policy, both nationally and internationally, and as a government special advisor for Disability and Health. She has worked with Westminster, the House of Lords, the European Union, the United Nations and is also working with leading global brands such as uh.

Claire Dibben – 08:46
You may not have heard of them. Um. Apple, Amazon and LinkedIn. In order to drive inclusive change, Celia that is incredible.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 08:55
Thank you

Claire Dibben – 08:56
That is incredible. And that’s not even half of the stuff that I could talk about as well. I needed to condense it down. So it’s what a delight to have you on the call. Thank you so much for joining us. Um, I know that you’ve got some personal reasons, uh, to be here, to be joining us on the call today, and it’s really important for you to be spreading the word about accessibility and inclusion.

Claire Dibben – 09:16
So would you would you mind sharing that with our attendees before we kick off? So to give a bit of context as to, I suppose, one of my driving factors as to why I work in this space is

Celia Chartres-Aris – 09:25
I was born with a degenerative, connective tissue disorder. Um, it’s incurable. It is terminal. So my entire life and the decisions that I’ve made and the things that have affected me have always been driven or affected by the condition that I was born with. And I’m very much of the mentality of trying to break down this stereotype that people presume my capabilities before I’m able to show them what I can and can’t do.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 09:49
And that’s one of my driving factors. I’ll also say as well, for anybody that needs a quick visual description of myself. I am a white female. I’m wearing a white jumper. I don’t know why, because I’m also hat in the hottest room in the entire world. So if I get progressively more red, that is why, um, I’ve got an orange headband on and I’m wearing glasses and I have blonde hair and I’m sat in a cream room and for anybody using closed captions, I’m speaking with a strong southern English accent is the way I describe it.

Claire Dibben – 10:17
Nice. Oh, now I feel like I should do myself, but I haven’t thought about CareScribe myself. Okay, I am a white woman with shoulder length blonde hair. I’m wearing a black vest top because as Celia mentioned, we’re both in very hot, stuffy rooms. Um, and I’m stood in an office building.

Claire Dibben – 10:35
There is a small sort of fake tree plant behind my shoulder in the background, and a piece of art on the wall and the walls are white. Um, do you think that covers it? Celia

Celia Chartres-Aris – 10:45
Smashed it. Smashed it? Okay.

Claire Dibben – 10:47
Thank you very much. Right. So, um, let’s come on to the topic of why you’re joining us today. So we’re talking about the global Dei shift and what UK businesses need to know and why it matters. So you’ve got a series of questions just to put to you. Celia.

Claire Dibben – 11:03
And, um, also there will be time at the end of the session for people to put their questions directly to you. Are you happy to kick things off

Celia Chartres-Aris – 11:10
Absolutely.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 11:11
Let’s go for it.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 11:12
Wonderful.

Claire Dibben – 11:13
Okay, so the first question Celia is can you break down? What actually actually happening with diversity, equity and inclusion in the US

Celia Chartres-Aris – 11:24
So I want to preface before I start to say that there is this is obviously a very emotional topic to talk about. And I know when I speak to a lot of my US friends, this is very real. And the consequential effects of this are quite devastating. So I just want to preface that by stating that there might be conversations within our discussion that people might find triggering and no, none of us will be offended if you choose to just mute us and just walk away for a second, or kind of wait till we’ve moved on to the next conversation.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 11:50
So, as I think we all are aware, is that Trump won the election, um, in the United States and he won off a mandate of possibly what people, some people view as quite extreme views around diversity, equity and inclusion. And what that means, what diversity, equity and inclusion means So the important thing to remember is that in America, they have something called a codified constitution.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 12:14
So when we hear these words. You know, freedom of speech, the right to bear arms. That is written in their government that can never be changed. It can never be overwritten. So in the UK, our government structure is an uncodified constitution, which effectively means we can make changes as we go.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 12:31
So as as things progress, as things develop, it’s a little bit easier for us to make laws, which is again why in America, for example, around gun licensing. It’s such a difficult conversation because it’s codified in their law that it cannot be changed. So within their codified legislation, they have things such as freedom of speech, which is one of the big powerful mantras that Trump went off in his general election mandate.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 12:57
And as soon as he came into office, he passed an executive order. And for anybody that isn’t familiar, what an executive order really stripping it back. So we will have all the information that we need. It’s effectively like a prerogative power. So a prerogative power here in the UK, for example, is when we can bypass voting and we can go straight to making a decision and implementing something in the UK.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 13:22
That very, very rarely happens. One of the last times it happened with was with the war in Afghanistan. So we use it very, very rarely. And very, very sparingly. And it’s typically only used in situations of national threat or terrorism or when something has to very, very quickly change.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 13:38
We also saw it used a couple of times during the double dip recession. But in America it’s much easier to use these prerogative powers. And they have a different name called executive orders. And he passed executive order. And I won’t read the number because nobody, none of us need to know the number of it, but it was to end radical and wasteful DNI programs.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 13:59
That was what it was called. And effectively what it meant was the abolition of things like the accessibility and disability department within the US government, and has had quite a knock on effect. I’m sure we’ll also all aware of the the abolishment of kind of certain parts of the educational department around send education.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 14:19
But the mantra and the reason behind it was, was that the American people felt like DNI was getting out of control. So here in the UK, we have something called positive discrimination, which is where we make sure that we’re really looking at our quotas.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 14:35
We’re really looking at our diversity measures in America, they call this unfair discrimination effectively. So what they’re saying is it’s not right. That somebody that lives in the majority should now be discriminated against based on somebody from a minority.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 14:51
So this is where the whole aether has come from. The second element of it is, and whether you agree with that or not, again, is personal, is personal opinion. We’re here to kind of talk about the facts of the situation. The second element of it is, is that word wasteful spending.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 15:07
So the Trump administration has taken the view that talking about accessibility and all of these departments around gender, around sexuality. The money that they’re spending on this is so enormous. And it is large, large amounts of money is, quote unquote, wasteful and would be better off redirected somewhere else, such as into economic initiatives, into educational and initiatives.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 15:30
But that is a very quick debrief of where we are at from a US perspective and how there’s a slight difference between here and the but just kind of that comparative language, I think, helps us all kind of understand a little bit better

Celia Chartres-Aris – 15:44
I was really helpful.

Claire Dibben – 15:45
I was thinking, oh my God, I’m already learning so much. And that’s just question number one. Um, so you feel free. You did touch on this, but I have a follow up to that, which is could you shed any more light on what specific changes are being made?

Claire Dibben – 16:00
And, you know, why these shifts are taking place now of all times

Celia Chartres-Aris – 16:07
So

Celia Chartres-Aris – 16:07
They’re happening now because people are effectively going back to what I was saying before, is people feel like this is getting out of control now. Effectively again, very sensitive kind of topic to be discussing. The largest kind of minority group have taken the decision that as the minority.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 16:24
Why is so much Elza of spending being spent on something that represents kind of 0.2% of the population? So, for example, in kind of the trans, um, phobic movement that we’ve seen in America and trans rights movement.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 16:40
Effectively, the argument was, is why are we spending and it’s horrific to say out loud. And I apologise if this is triggering for anybody. Why are we spending so much money and so much time talking about something and so many resources that affect 0.2% of the population?

Celia Chartres-Aris – 16:57
The other element of why now is this big movement that we’ve seen globally around freedom of speech and what does freedom of speech? Actually mean? So we’ve seen here in the UK and in America. Where people are currently serving prison sentences for reposting memes that might be considered racist or homophobic or sexist or transphobic, or they’ve been involved in kind of Twitter arguments where they’ve used derogatory slurs, who are now serving prison sentences.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 17:26
Um, it has also been stripped down to, you know, somebody sharing a TikTok of something that somebody might find offensive to view. But it’s basically happening now because of this argument globally around freedom of speech and arguably, when you kind of look at political and.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 17:42
That’s why Trump won the last election. And again, something I’m going to say, which is a very strong statement. But has been said numerous times by a lot of very kind of profound institutions like the Financial Times, etc., etc.. As to why did Trump beat Kamala Harris and the reason being was the fact that and I’m quoting here, these are not these are not my words.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 18:03
People care more about the cost of their groceries than they do. As to whether gay people can get married. And ultimately, that’s what the election was stripped down to. Is the average person, quote unquote, was worried about that. And that was what Trump honed in on.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 18:19
Yeah.

Claire Dibben – 18:22
Well.

Claire Dibben – 18:23
Um, I do have a bit of a question for you, which is it is a slight segue, but you referenced there like memes and Tik. So to what extent do you think social media has played a part in amplifying all of this stuff? Celia.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 18:37
I mean, it’s it’s it’s enormous. And throughout the kind of last electoral cycles, we’ve seen how social media has taken a massive place in political campaigning. I think, you know. For anybody that’s of an older generation, they will remember people coming and knocking on their doors every week, kind of passing them leaflets, doing this, doing this, doing this.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 18:58
You know, I have a background in politics. It’s where I spent a lot of my working life. The systems of analysis on social media and kind of search engines have got much more powerful, and they’ve got much more clever. So political parties can view where you are.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 19:14
How old you are. Do you own your own house? Where do you likely to do your food shop? You know, where do your children go to school? And it’s got so clever and so intelligent that now you are getting targeted social media posts on Facebook, on TikTok and Instagram and you don’t even realise that you’re being watched by these political parties.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 19:32
It’s not individual. There’s no breaks GDPR, but what’s effectively happening is they’re using GPS locations and looking. This is a more affluent area and X percent of this area send their children to this school. And we know that they shop there based on kind of mobility patterns.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 19:48
So there is targeted social media happening. And going back to kind of what we were saying in our in our kind of precession when we were talking about the questions that we wanted to talk about One of the other things that’s happening with social media, especially within younger generations, is there’s this massive slip between fact and opinion.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 20:07
So of course, everybody is entitled to have an opinion. It’s natural human instinct to have an opinion on everything. As soon as you hear a piece of information, you go, yep, I need to make an opinion about that because that’s what we do psychologically as humans. But what’s happening is there is a massive distortion in the space of fact being pitted against opinion.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 20:26
And we’ve seen that a lot with MAGA, which is for anybody that doesn’t know that term. It’s the Make America great kind of group of people. Trump supporters. Where we’re seeing so much misinformation being put out into the aether via social media. But it’s coming from very official accounts, and it’s.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 20:42
Kind of sliding its way into your for you pages and your Instagram that you’re not necessarily aware of. The fact that it’s misinformation. Um, I also say on the flip side of that, that social media has been a very positive thing because it’s raised awareness and it’s allowed people who wouldn’t typically have been able to share their voice or had their voice heard.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 21:03
Gain. These platforms and gain these audiences and be able to throw their hat into the mix and say. Actually, no. This isn’t correct. And our community are going to stand up for what is right. So it’s been brilliant to see that kind of social shift of people feeling more empowered to have their voices heard and have the avenues to do that.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 21:22
But on the flip side, it’s also proving incredibly dangerous

Celia Chartres-Aris – 21:27
Very powerful stuff.

Claire Dibben – 21:29
Social media needs to be handled very, very carefully. Um, you’ve talked quite a bit there, about sort of the political drive behind these changes. I was just curious, is there anything else that has led to these changes around D and I in the US?

Claire Dibben – 21:44
Is it is it purely politically driven, economically motivated? Is it related to anything else?

Celia Chartres-Aris – 21:50
So

Celia Chartres-Aris – 21:51
So one of the main drivers kind of based on political when we look at the political breakdowns following the Trump administration, is economic drive is you know, we are living in a world of cost of living, isn’t just happening here in the UK. It’s happening globally. And when you combine that with a sort of a global general political shift, that’s becoming a little bit more extreme.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 22:12
We’ve seen it particularly in a lot of European countries, that quote unquote, the far right, you know, that’s expression that’s been coined is gaining traction. Again, a very sensitive topic to bring up is around immigration. It has absolutely dominated the political spheres at the moment.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 22:29
And this this issue of immigration of countries effectively saying we’re full. We cannot take any more people. And that’s effectively what it’s been boiled down to, really. And it’s simplicity. Where, you know the truth and the falsity surrounding that. Are there a massive falsity surrounding kind of the conversation around immigration?

Celia Chartres-Aris – 22:48
But economics and immigration are kind of the mobility of people have been the two biggest firings of this conversation. And the most people will go, well, what on earth has that got to do with DNI effectively? Because effectively, what’s happening is you’ve got greater minorities in these countries because of social mobility.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 23:07
At the same time, you’ve got more people, more spending on these, quote unquote, DNI issues. And together, when those things go hand in hand, we’re seeing economic slumps in countries that typically were very fast in their economic growth. So to put it into perspective, you know, America.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 23:25
Making American dreams come true. That was an advertising campaign in in 1910. And it has stuck. They were attracting people to America, and it was the American dream. And Americans to this day. Still hold that as an integral part of their values of America.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 23:43
That was an advertising campaign. So it shows how powerful that was. Um, but what effectively we’re seeing is these countries that we’re supposed to be the great places to live, where you could do anything you wanted to do and be anything you wanted to be. Aren’t those places anymore?

Celia Chartres-Aris – 23:59
And scapegoats have to be found and reasons for high spending have to be found. So where do we find those people? We find those in the minority groups. Yeah.

Claire Dibben – 24:11
Wow.

Claire Dibben – 24:12
When you when. You

Claire Dibben – 24:14
Quite striking when you phrase it like that. Celia. Um, is is is this sort of change in the die landscape? Only happening in the US? Are we seeing it in any other countries at all?

Celia Chartres-Aris – 24:27
Um,

Celia Chartres-Aris – 24:28
It’s happening everywhere. Absolutely. Everywhere. I think for anybody that wasn’t aware about a week and a half, two weeks ago, we had the Supreme Court, court ruling here in the UK. And effectively the conversation that was happening to really strip it back into its very digestible information was, what is a woman And it was the trans conversation has grown so much, which has been fantastic to see that there’s so much more awareness that got taken to the Supreme Court of saying, actually, how are we defining genders?

Celia Chartres-Aris – 24:57
How are we defining sexuality? And the ruling was passed unanimously that a woman was a biological woman. Um, and so someone that possesses. So and so chromosomes X and Y, Z. This has thrown up so many issues for women who are quote unquote, biologically women, but have chromosomal defects or women that aren’t born with a womb or are intersex.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 25:20
It’s not just the trans argument that this is effective. But that is a prime example of the fact that this DNI conversation has grown massively across the globe. We’re also seeing it within the European Union, which we aren’t a part of anymore. However, we all need to remind ourselves the fact that the EU and the European courts are two very, very Different things.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 25:44
When we left the European Union, we did not leave the European courts of human rights. And I think that’s a lot of, again, misinformation that gets spread around Brexit. We are still part of that and we are still held accountable because we need somewhere to take our country to court. And that’s where we do it.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 25:59
Um, it’s a scary place to be everywhere at the moment. I think, especially if you belong in a minority group. Um, thinking again, kind of bringing it back to the immigration conversation, I think all of us here in the UK have felt that that hatred or that disdain or that whatever opinion you hold on, it is growing and it’s growing massively.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 26:20
We looked at reform, the political party who are defined as more on the right wing of the scale. Whether, you know, you align there or you don’t. They’ve grown massively. They went from nothing Absolutely no policies, nothing. And won three seats. Based on.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 26:36
One policy. And that is they’ve completely changed. Again, getting kind of politically nerdy about it. They’ve completely changed the political landscape about how we campaign in the future and how we drive policy in the future, and actually, what does political campaigning look like?

Celia Chartres-Aris – 26:52
But we’ve seen their growth. So I think there is definitely a global shift. And it’s undeniable. Nobody can deny it, that that kind of DNI agenda should be taking more of a back seat. That is the shift that we’re seeing. But I think there’s a lot of misunderstanding around what DNI.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 27:10
Is. And that is stemming from false information

Claire Dibben – 27:14
Yeah, we were talking.

Claire Dibben – 27:15
Yeah, we were talking quite a lot in our Pre-session, weren’t we? Around? Just fascinating to hear your views and like fact versus opinion and how those becoming those things are becoming like blurred online depending on the platforms that you got access to in order to distribute your views.

Claire Dibben – 27:31
I suppose. Um, you talked there Celia about you referenced like the, the EU courts and just sort of bringing it back to, to the US again. Um, you mentioned at the start this sort of codified policies that mean that they can’t be changed in the US.

Claire Dibben – 27:47
So there are there any other sort of laws and regulations that exist in the US that have, like allowed for such a U-turn to happen, or is it just the fact that it’s codified essentially how, how else are they justifying these such huge shifts?

Celia Chartres-Aris – 28:02
I mean, they’re massive and I don’t know if anybody’s watched the footage of Trump kind of signing these executive orders. And he’s actually like next one, next one, next one in the UK that would never happen. So a little bit of kind of I suppose basic information about structuring, um, here in the UK we have the judiciary and the legislator and they are completely separate.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 28:25
So there is no way that those two can ever interact with one another in the making of laws. And progression. So, effectively, when we’re discussing bringing in a new piece of legislation, for example, the Equality Act, the legislator makes it the judiciary enforces it, and they are separate people.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 28:42
They they’re are so many lines of kind of stipulations about what they can and can’t do, who they can talk to, what information gets passed across. They are separate institutions within our legislature as well. We also have two step well three.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 28:58
Step authentication. So we have the House of Commons and it will go backwards and forwards and backwards and forwards between select committees. Appgs. And it takes years to get anything through anybody that’s ever been involved in designing legislation. Unfortunately it does take absolute forever.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 29:16
But there are reasons for that. It’s because we have to go backwards and forwards. Once the House of Commons have approved something, it goes into the House of Lords and again, the House of Lords go backwards and forwards and backwards and forwards. Now the House of Lords are appointed. So we have done away with hereditary peers, meaning if your dad was a House member of the House of Lords, you now don’t get it as his son.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 29:36
So we did away with that. That was left over from times of landowning. And you? Know, places where we now visit a historic England. But now it’s appointed. But you’re appointed based on your expertise. So political parties can appoint people and there can also be independent appointments.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 29:55
But the House of Lords, um, kind of overarching authority. Keep a very close eye on the numbers to make sure that no political party is ever more than another political party. So it’s done based. It’s very equal. Um, and we’re very lucky in that country that we have that kind of official looking over it, going, you know, Labour, you’ve got too many conservatives, you’ve got too many.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 30:15
And then when someone leaves that spot, spot will be designated to a political party or to the independent panel to decide who’s going to fill that role. Um, but it’s very competitive. Then we look at America. And the American political system, and I know this feels like a lot of information, but I promise it’s kind of valuable as to what what why we need to talk about it.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 30:36
In America. We have the legislature and we have the judiciary, and they are not separated. They are effectively, even though they are two institutions, they are very much joined at the hip. So Trump has the power to appoint the people who.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 30:52
Basically enforce the law. Um, so the, the administration that’s in power has the power to decide who sits amongst that judicial system and the judicial system are in charge of looking at legislation and how it affects people. So the one that I’m sure we’re all aware of is Roe v Wade, which happened, um, a couple of years ago, which is around, uh, the rights of embryos.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 31:15
Um, again, this is a really shocking conversation. So please, if anybody would like to skip this part, please do. And I’ll raise my hand when this conversation is over. Um, we saw with Roe v Wade around the conversation of abortions and women’s rights and fertility and all of these conversations. And it was overturned.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 31:31
What then happened was that states, because they have, you know, we have the overarching legislative we also have it localised as well, because America, we can’t even comprehend how big it is. They have devolved powers into their states. States can decide how to enforce the overarching legislation.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 31:50
So what happened when Roe v Wade got overturned was effectively, states could then go, do we want to overturn this as well? Is this something we how do we feel about this, which is why it provides a little bit of explanation as to why in certain areas of America, the conversations around abortion are different to in other areas of America.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 32:10
So kind of looking comparatively, conversation is over. Raising my hand back up again. Look, comparatively from UK to US. Structurally, we are very, very different. However. Sentimentality. There is definitely a lot of lot of echoes we all know about the famous kind of transatlantic friendship that we have with America, and actually how economically we are very joined and we are very dependent on America.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 32:36
We are a very, very small country. Um, countries typically tend to be service based or manufacturing based. We are a service based country, which means we don’t produce a lot of the things that we need. So we have to import quite a lot. What the American kind of administration have done is relied on the fact that they are a manufacturing based industry, and therefore, if they want countries, if they want the products that they ship out.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 33:01
So, for example, US, China, etc., etc., if we want those American products, we’re going to have to fall in line with American values. And we’ve seen that in the last couple of weeks with this conversation around tariffs and making sure that things are brought back to American production

Claire Dibben – 33:20
So fascinating hearing you talk about all of those things. It’s just like hearing you talk about all the different puzzle pieces that actually go behind, you know, this landscape that we’re seeing in America now. Also, you said, um, you almost apologise there for sharing so much information.

Claire Dibben – 33:39
One. Don’t do that again. It’s fascinating. And two, we’ve had some comments in the chat. Someone said, this is so incredible I am hooked. More of Celia please. So and encouragement to keep talking in the way that you are. Um, and someone has also said I love how Celia is explaining things in a non-biased way, which is what we were talking about at the start.

Claire Dibben – 33:58
You know, presenting just evidence. Um. Right. So the next question, I want to take us on to is just what protection does UK law currently provide for Denny? So we’ve spoken a lot about America.

Claire Dibben – 34:13
You’ve talked about, um, the judiciary and the legislator. I yeah. Um, so is there any other context that we should be aware of? Um, about specifically what protection does UK law provide for Denny

Celia Chartres-Aris – 34:30
So in the UK, going back to the conversation we had right at the beginning about the fact that we have an uncodified constitution, which effectively means we can roll with the times. That’s the really easy way of explaining it. We aren’t bound by the the freedom of speech. Number one, the right to bear arms.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 34:45
Number two. Almost a bit like the commandments, which is what they’ve been compared to in America. Um, so we with our Uncodified Constitution, we are able to kind of roll with the times and things can develop. We have set legislation and set things within the UK, which will never be undermined, which is, for example, human rights.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 35:06
Murder. These come from a place of joint unanimity that these are something that, as you know, the 14th most developed country in the world, we are never going to undermine these things. However, the interpretation of them is what is coming under question.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 35:21
It’s important to remember for anybody in the UK that we are also sitting under the United Nations and the European Courts of human rights. Just because we left the EU. Yes. Arguably we did leave lose some of our human rights by leaving the European Union.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 35:37
But what the government at the time did was replace them with something else. So there was a lot of misinformation around, you know, size of cucumbers was really dominating the conversation for some reason. Yes, there were elements of legislation that we lost by leaving the EU, but they were replaced with amendments, legislation that we already had.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 35:55
So another thing to to explain about kind of UK legislation is, for example, we have the Equality Act, which is now 15 years old. It came into place in 2010. Lots of people then think, okay. 15 years being unbiased, I think we’re due another one.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 36:12
Um, but since 2010 we have been making amendments to it. So tweaks of language for example, within reasonable adjustments and the definition of disability that has been updated as the times have gone on. So we are protected by that and we are protected.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 36:28
Absolutely. So when we say we’re protected. Absolutely, it means there’s no undermining of it. There are only very, very specific, a kind of avenues of degradation from it. So a really good example to give is, for example, the right to discriminate against a disabled person.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 36:43
When is it okay to do it? And the prime example I always give is for example, if the country was to go to war. Um, and we had kind of mass conscription. If somebody who had reduced mobility or was a wheelchair user and wanted to voluntarily, um, sign up to join the military to go into active participation of war, they would be denied that to be able to do that for the threat of safety of other people, because, for example, somebody with reduced mobility in a war zone would not be the best situation to put somebody in.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 37:15
So there are there are avenues where we can get around it. And I bring the conversation back to the Supreme Court ruling around what is a woman and whatever kind of whichever way you fall on this argument, because everybody has their own opinion about what is right and what is wrong when we’re talking about this conversation.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 37:32
Just because that Supreme Court ruling has happened. Yes. Whatever your views, whether you agree with it or whether you don’t. Does have an impact on somebody’s human rights. However, we do have the Equality Act, which comes into place to back up everything that we’re saying. So, for example, the right not to discriminate against somebody based on their preferential gender, whether you again, whether you agree with that wording or not, is a personal opinion.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 37:56
But what we have within the UK is layers of protection. We have united Nations legislations, which is called the Devolved power. So effectively what we’ve done is we’ve taken the convention, the charter, we saw it, we went there, we liked it, we signed up to it and we agreed to put it into our law.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 38:14
Now there’s this big misconception that effectively that means I’ll take the United Nations Charter on the Rights of Persons with disabilities. We don’t have that here in the UK. Like I can’t quote that in a British court. What I can do is look at the United Nations Convention and cross-check and go, yep, that’s the same wording in the Equality Act.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 38:34
So a devolved piece of legislation means we took the charter and we put it in our own legislation in a way that works for us. And works for the UK. I can, however, take my government to court in the United Nations and put them against the disability committee and say as a country, my rights have been violated.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 38:52
If it can’t be dealt with here in the UK. So we have those layers of protection which are incredibly beneficial and not a lot of people realise we have that. I think one of the main things that drives me is making sure that people are aware of the human rights that they have, because I think it’s really important that we are all educated and we know what is right and what is wrong.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 39:13
Whether you are someone that’s directly affected by discrimination or you’re somebody that’s trying to actively prevent discrimination as a line manager, as an employer, whatever it may be. We all need to be clued up on this information, but unfortunately it’s not freely given out. Yeah.

Claire Dibben – 39:30
Um, you mentioned there around like being clued up on that information is a line manager as an employee and actually, um, I just love to pivot us now into sort of the, the context of this, like U.K. business owners. So if I was a business owner in the UK and I believed that the American movement was right.

Claire Dibben – 39:51
Um, what are the likely consequences to my business for not investing in things like inclusive hiring practices or assisted technology? What would that look like

Celia Chartres-Aris – 40:04
So there’s there’s two elements to this. One is the legal side and one is the impact side. So if we first look at the legal side of things, we can spot this from a mile away. Under British legislation. We are very lucky about the fact that both conscious and unconscious bias are covered by our legislation.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 40:23
So just to describe to anyone who doesn’t know what that means, effectively, it means direct and indirect discrimination. So direct discrimination is something you’ve done consciously. You are well aware that you have made the decision, not to do. X, Y, and z because of that individual or that group of people.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 40:40
Indirect discrimination or unconscious bias comes into play where you might not realise you’re doing it or you might have not done it with the intention of hate, but that doesn’t matter. You’ve still done it. So really good examples. Here is I don’t want to hire that person because they’re a woman and I’m making assumptions about that.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 40:57
I actually want an all male team because of discriminatory reasons. And unconscious bias would be looking around my team and going, oh my goodness, there is loads of men here and not enough women. Let me do a deep dive about our recruitment processes and see what’s happening. Oh, I note that it says, you know that many sick days or you know, parental leave isn’t included, etc., etc. and dips down deep dives down into why has something happened?

Celia Chartres-Aris – 41:25
And that’s quite interesting to think about, because to be charged here with a, with a legal consequence here in the UK. If we’re thinking about, um, the legal courts, you have to have two things. You have to have actus reus and you have to have mens rea. So actus reus is the act mens rea is the intention.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 41:43
So for example, we see this with murder and manslaughter. So murder the actus reus was I committed it. And the mens rea was I meant to do it. When we think about manslaughter where somebody isn’t 99% of the time isn’t sent to prison or doesn’t face any repercussions, was.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 41:59
Yes, the act. Happened. But I didn’t mean to. And I can prove the fact that I didn’t mean to. So, for example, if somebody stepped out in the road in front of your car and you hit them, but you were going the speed limit, you were driving safely, you wouldn’t be punished for that act. What’s very interesting, when we look at DNI legislation is that element of mens rea intention is really called into question.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 42:22
And that’s again one of the DNI shifts that we’re seeing here in the UK is people saying and sort of people on the more extreme anti side of the DNI conversation going, hang on a minute. So all of the legislation tells me that I have to have had the mens rea, the intention.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 42:37
But when it comes to talking about minority groups because of biases that I’ve learned that just being through a human being in society and it’s unconscious and I don’t even realise it, I’m still going to get punished for that, even though I didn’t have the intention to do it. So it really is calling into question at the moment.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 42:55
This side of things. So that’s the legal side of things is the fact that if you choose to actively or non-active discriminate against disabled people, women, people from whatever community it may be, you will face legal consequences for that. Especially in the public sector.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 43:10
We have something called PTSD, which is public sector equality duty, where you have a duty to uphold equality and DNI, which is very interesting and a lot of people might not necessarily be aware of that. Then we have the other side of things, which is the economic and the social side of things.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 43:29
If you are an organisation which is not accessible, you know, doesn’t put closed captioning, that’s 16 million people that you have lost as a customer basis because there are 16 million people in the UK. That are D or deaf, um, and I say d deaf because we spell it with a little d slash be capital D, and the word d, it’s economically unviable to not be reaching out to minority communities.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 43:54
And I, I almost hate saying that word minority communities because so many of us that fall into this bracket of minority community aren’t minorities at all. One in nearly 1 in 4 people in this country identify as disabled. Sorry, but last time I checked, mathematical. You know, 1 in 4 was not classed as a minority.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 44:12
That’s quite a large percentage of people, but it’s the social side of things. It’s also brand affiliation, things like that have become much stronger in a space of social media and a space of influencing brand alliance and kind of commitment to certain organisations has become much stronger.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 44:29
People are watching carbon footprints, people looking at ethical and social values that from a business point of view, you are absolutely, for want of a bread expression, shooting ourselves in the foot. Yeah.

Claire Dibben – 44:43
And so I’m conscious of time Celia and we’ve got some questions coming in the Q&A. So I’ve got I’ve got selfishly, I’ve got one more that I want to ask you and then we’ll move over to questions from attendees. Um, so for UK organisations that want to stay committed to accessibility and inclusion, what should they be like?

Claire Dibben – 45:04
Absolutely. Prioritising right now.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 45:07
At the moment, I think it’s about prioritising people. The one thing we all have have in common is the fact that we are all different. We are a globally, socially moving world. We are a world. You know, we’ve seen so much controversy at the moment about people saying we’ve seen on Joe Rogan, who’s a very famous podcaster, and JFK Jr going, autism is rising.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 45:27
It’s down to vaccines. These very, very harmful narratives to our communities, very harmful. I think people want people need to realise from a business perspective is fact checking is so fundamentally important. Bringing it back to this conversation of opinion versus fact, there are so many facts out there that prove how diversity increases profit margins.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 45:48
There are so many studies out there which show why hiring from diverse, community bases improves productivity, raises bottom lines. We are a diverse community. We are a diverse world. If you do not lean into that and allow your business to lean into that to become accessible, to become inclusive, you are going to get left behind.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 46:08
We see political swings. This is how politics works, and quite often people are under the misconception that politics is a straight line. And I always use this example where you have the left and you have the right, and it’s on a phase like this, and, you know, labour. Sit about here. Um, the Lib Dems sit about here.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 46:24
Conservatives sit here, reforms sit here. It’s not a straight line at all. It’s a horseshoe shape. And that horseshoe almost touches at the top. So what we see here is kind of extreme communism and socialism with swinging around to labour about here. Lib Dems about here. And conservatives here.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 46:39
We’re all actually very nicely bunched down the bottom of this shoehorn. And then you go all the way up to it very extreme right? Things. But what you’ll notice in that shape is that the, the tops touch. Almost tops touch. I think it’s very important for realise for people not to get sucked into a conversation that is going to swing back again.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 46:58
It will. And that is in no way to undermine or demean how scary the world is right now. You know, I feel it. I see my American friends really feeling it. And so many of them are actually applying for visas to get out of America. And that is terrifying. What we have to do is stay strong, stay vocal and stay.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 47:17
Speaking up. We theoretically are protected in this country. Theoretically. And I say that with the ultimate sensitivity of everything that’s happened with the Supreme Court in the last couple of weeks. We have to stay strong and we have to speak up, whatever that opinion may be.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 47:34
Is that we also have freedom of speech. We also have freedom of identity. We have the freedom to be who you are and exist within that. Human rights are not a privilege. They are fundamental human, integral, part of being very lucky to live in this element of the privilege of the North, living in.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 47:52
We refer to the global North and the global South. We live in the global North. We have access to a lot more human rights, and we should be very privileged to to have those things. But we have to use them properly. We should not be undermining them. And I think it’s very important.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 48:07
The fact that this shift only works if the mass follow it. So just always double counting our information, always kind of questioning ourselves and going, why is this happening? Do we want to follow suit on this? And back everything you think up with evidence because you’ve had one opinion that isn’t opinion.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 48:25
Look it up with research. I’m getting back to this autism argument of apparently now vaccines are what are causing autism. Show me the scientific research. You know, we’ll have that conversation when there’s some scientific research. The currently there is none. If it’s underway, it’s underway. And, you know, when I look forward to reading the results.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 48:42
But right now I can give you the information that says the rates of autism are rising because of better awareness, better diagnosis, early intervention. So I think all of us just taking a moment to fact check ourselves and realise the situation, but also remembering the fact that there’s no right and there’s no wrong opinions are not there to be proven or disproven.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 49:02
Facts are there to be disproven and proven. It’s not about cancelling people. It’s not about getting angry. It’s about having educated as best as we can. Conversations to understand why people feel a certain way. Maybe it’s some lived experience has played an impact on that, and keeping a kind of united and unanimous voice is really, really important.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 49:22
But not going into conversations with hatred and anger is really important because it just drifts the sides even further apart.

Claire Dibben – 49:31
What an answer. What an answer. And I couldn’t agree with you more like just the importance of education, fact checking, and also the importance of community. Like one of the reasons that we created Skill Sessions was to bring those voices together and to encourage community, empower, um Okay, conscious of time.

Claire Dibben – 49:52
So we’ve got 11 minutes left and we had a question sent in. In advance, which I’m going to put to you now. Um, so you’ve talked about the Supreme Court decision. Um, this person has asked and you may you may not know the answer because it’s so recent, but would be interesting to see to to see if you do have any context to share.

Claire Dibben – 50:12
Um, this person asks, how are organisations responding to the quagmire left by the Supreme Court decision and subsequent guidance, particularly considering the likelihood that both are at odds with human rights law and the EC.

Claire Dibben – 50:27
EC, which the UK has signed up to. Let me know if you want me to repeat that question. It’s a

Celia Chartres-Aris – 50:35
Really good question. It’s really person at the moment. I think the best way I can, I can explain what to do. Effectively is what do we now do is what people are asking. Is it the Supreme Court have said this, but we don’t want to do that. Or should we be doing it? I don’t really understand what we do now.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 50:52
The Equality Act is still there. And the Equality Act very clearly stipulates that somebody cannot be discriminated against. And again, I’m going to use language which is the formal language, not necessarily personal opinion of preferential gender. The language is is outdated.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 51:07
And I mean, you know, that’s a whole separate conversation. But the Equality Act is still there that people cannot be discriminated against based on how they identify. And I think that is the fundamental thing to remember. I also think it’s really important to remember that, yes, the Supreme Court ruling has happened.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 51:23
But again, thinking back to our legislative systems. Those two elements are separate. That is that is one example. That is one case. That is one conversation where that conversation is going to go now is very scary for a lot of people. And I totally understand that. But right now, focus on what we do have and the protections that we do have.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 51:42
It is not illegal to allow somebody that identifies as a woman that may not have necessarily been born as a woman to use a women’s bathroom. That is not an illegal thing to do. It is a Supreme Court ruling. And I think we all need to remember that kind of level of separation.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 52:00
But I totally understand how scary it is at the moment. And people are very worried about, you know, their right to use a bathroom, which is just ridiculous that we’re even talking about this in 2025. But I’d always say about the fact that Ethicality is and socials of an organisation that is your grassroots.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 52:18
That’s what makes you who you are, whether you are a safe space, whether you are an organisation that’s actively supports or supports subconsciously, remember who you are. Remember what you believe and know that there is still that protection. There. And you know it’s not as big as it was, which is, you know, a scary place to be.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 52:36
But there is an element of it there. And unfortunately, we do just have to wait and see what’s going to happen next

Claire Dibben – 52:44
And Celia. Um, we’ve got time for a final question now, and this has been submitted by Conor. Um, I hope I pronounced your name correctly. Um, the the moral and business case for Di is clear. They say yet. Many companies still claim that implementing Dei is too difficult or it requires too much effort.

Claire Dibben – 53:06
Um, and this person has said that they agree that it takes work, but that it’s worth it. So they’d be really interested to hear how you would respond to companies who remain unconvinced, particularly given the challenges around proving direct causation between Dei and improved performance

Celia Chartres-Aris – 53:24
So the first thing I’d say is a really good way to to think about the DNI conversation. I’m not actually even a big fan of this expression. DNI, because I why do we have to even have a separate category? Again, another separate category. A really good way to to kind of imagine this is when you’re going to say a sentence, when you’re going to think about something, when you’re thinking about your policies, if you just changed one word in it, would you still say the sentence?

Celia Chartres-Aris – 53:49
So really good example that we hear all the time. Is it cost too much to make somewhere accessible? It cost too much to build a disabled bathroom in. It cost too much better lift in. Would you still say that sentence if we weren’t saying the word disability? We were saying the word woman or we were saying the word black for example.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 54:05
You know, it cost too much to put in a woman’s bathroom. So we’re not actually going to be able to hire a woman. Would, as an organisation, how would you feel if that sentence was blasted all over your social media for the world to hear? I don’t think it would go down too well, but for some reason, elements of DNI, you know, we’re so left behind in the conversation.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 54:26
Am I saying that the rest of DNI space is where it needs to be? Absolutely not. But what we’re seeing with certain minority groups is we are much further behind in the conversation. It’s kind of reminding ourselves, if we change that word and we put that on social media, we’ll still say it. Would we be happy that that was our brand being represented?

Celia Chartres-Aris – 54:42
I also think it’s really important to remember. Kind of generational movement. The opinions of younger generations are very, very different to the opinions of older generations. And there’s lots of criticism within that. And the irony is, is the fact that the older generations we’re living with now have very, very different opinions to their parents and their grandparents.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 55:01
And it is the cycle of humanity. It’s always going to be this way. But think about who your target audience is. You know, my background. I also do investment, and I look at kind of business development. You know, my target is not tomorrow. My target is in two years.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 55:17
Who am I thinking about in the future? Who are my retained values? Where where am I going as an organisation? If I want to, you know, as an organisation, if I’m happy to be over in five years, fine. Target the oldies is the expression that I want to say. But we want to create that generational progression.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 55:32
The other thing I’d say is, you know, why have we got to do this? Look at Deloitte’s look at Microsoft. Look at, um, Apple. Look at Google, who have made diversity a priority. Again, I preface by saying, are they where they need to be? No. It’s a journey. It’s not a destination.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 55:48
It’s a constantly evolving landscape. As humanity changes. And I think that’s so important to remember is if you don’t keep up, you will be left behind. And we have seen this, um, we saw this in the 1980s. For anybody that I was, I wasn’t alive then, but I know the stories of it.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 56:04
And I’ve studied it. You know, women who were married weren’t allowed to open their own independent bank accounts, which is just to think that that was only not that long ago is a terrifying thought. A couple of banks spearheaded the movement to allow women when the legislation was lifted, to open their own bank accounts, the banks that didn’t died.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 56:24
They aren’t. They aren’t with us anymore because they lost all their customers. And to say it like that and to say it so simply and use that example sounds quite horrific. It sounds very dramatic. But the world evolves and we need to keep up. I think it’s so important that conversations that we’re having now, hopefully we’re not going to be having in 50 years time, but they will be replaced by another conversation as humanity and to strip it back like this sounds really emotionless, and it sounds really kind of.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 56:55
I suppose the emotionless, but as human beings, when we reach a certain level of comfort, we find things that we want to talk about, which is amazing, because it means that we see these progressions of human rights. So we’re not worrying about fire. And I’m talking the vast majority.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 57:10
Of course, I’m recognising poverty and kind of the lack of resources available, but we’ve reached a basic level of comfort, that kind of Arcadia is only dreamed of, or they couldn’t even dream it because they couldn’t fathom it. So we move on to the next thing, and the next thing, and the next thing. What businesses have to remember is the fact that the conversations we’re having now, we might not be having them in 50 years, but we’re going to be having a different conversation.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 57:31
And that’s so important. This is constantly going to move. So if you choose to drop out now, that’s fine. But you’re going to be left behind. And to really strip it back like that. So emotionless sounds horrible. But it is the truth. It is the truth of ethical social diversity conversations and not just a moral one.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 57:49
They’re not just the right thing to do. Economically and socially. They’re a necessity. And you will be left behind if you don’t follow suit

Claire Dibben – 57:59
Celia I think that is a very powerful way to end this wonderful session that we’ve had with you today. Um, thank you so much for your time. You the examples that you provided, the way you sort of framed stuff or just I found it really it really resonated with me.

Claire Dibben – 58:16
Um, and we’ve had so many wonderful comments in the chat as well. So Kathleen says, Celia, you are so inspiring. Thank you for this incredible talk. There was one which I thought was really good. Someone said, uh, let me just see if I can find it because it caught my eye. I want to be Celia when I grow up.

Claire Dibben – 58:32
That’s what they put. What a review. Lovely stuff. Um, someone has also asked Celia, do you have a page that we can follow? I don’t know if there’s any prominent social that you use LinkedIn.

Celia Chartres-Aris – 58:44
I just live on LinkedIn. So follow

Claire Dibben – 58:45
Me on LinkedIn. Same. Same for me. Same for. Five. So go follow CareScribe and Celia on LinkedIn. There you go. Um, right. So just thank you so much, Celia for your time. I will start to wrap up now. And um. Anyone on the call if you want to say thank you to Celia, please use the chat to do so.

Claire Dibben – 59:02
Um, so I think Hayley, one of the team, has just put a link to the feedback survey that I mentioned at the start, and you can let us know how you found today. I think I think you think you found it quite good. Um, and you can also request more information about Caption.Ed and TalkType. So if you work in an organisation that is, um, interested in um.

Claire Dibben – 59:21
Supporting your neurodivergent, neurodivergent and disabled staff with assistive technology, um, Caption.Ed and TalkType may be of interest to you. And you can let us know if you want to find out more in the feedback survey. Um, before we wrap up, a reminder that the next skill event, which is on the topic of ADHD.

Claire Dibben – 59:38
Productivity versus procrastination, is on the 5th of June with Suzy Patton, and you can sign up for that on LinkedIn or via our website. Right now. And if you enjoyed today’s webinar. Um, please just help us spread the word. Um, share skill with your LinkedIn network.

Claire Dibben – 59:55
Share it on your intranet. Tell a colleague about it. Like I said at the start, there are 2500 of you now. Um, and we’ve grown a really fantastic community and every little word of mouth helps. So thank you so much, everyone for joining us again. And thank you, Celia Celia had to dip off because she was going to a parliamentary event.

Claire Dibben – 01:00:15
So we were, um, delighted to be able to squeeze her, squeeze her time with us today. Um, thank you ever so much. I will see you at the next skill sessions. I cannot wait to leave this room because it’s very, very warm and stuffy. I hope everyone enjoys the sun and we will see you next month for the next event.

Claire Dibben – 01:00:30
Bye

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